I absolutely love German, it is one of my favourite languages, there's such beauty in it. I am not a native speaker, but enjoy studying it. I am a native Afrikaans speaker and I see so many similarities between the two, which I find intriguing.
Don't tell the people in the Netherlands and Belgium, but Dutch is a German dialect with pretensions, and Afrikaans is a Dutch dialect, so...
Well, if it comes to that. German is not _really_ a single language. It’s a dialect continuum consisting of sometimes barely mutually intelligible variants. And yes, if you continue following that continuum, you get to the languages you mention.
A language is a dialect with an army and a fleet. As they used to say.
'A language is a dialect with an army and a fleet ' --> I hadn't heard this before, love it! For the curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a...
A bit of relevant context: the quote is from Yiddish, which is primarily Germanic with significant admixture from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Slavic languages.
(One of my current favorite party tricks is speaking Yiddish to German speakers, and cranking up the other aspects to see where the intelligibility breaks down.)
I took a trip to Germany with my Dad, who grew up with Yiddish-speaking parents, and it was amazing to watch people's eyeballs pop out as they began to understand him and then realize what they were hearing.
> A language is a dialect with an army and a fleet. As they used to say.
I usually say "A dialect is a language that lost a war", but this one might be better :)
And the continuum has two big groups: High and Low German (High and Low here being z-coordinates, High German dialects because they come from the more mountainous Southern areas and Low German from the lower-lying Northern parts). Modern day Standard German is a High German variant, whereas Dutch (and thus Afrikaans) are Low German.
Sorry, got nerd sniped: Isn't it usually the y coordinate that stands for the vertical axis? At least that's how I know 3D coordinate systems, with the z axis either increasing towards or away from the center, left handed vs right handed coordinate systems.
In GIS parlance, elevation is typically z coordinate. Which of x and y correspond to east-west and north-south varies from coordinate system to coordinate system, and is a bountiful source of stupid bugs (at least for me). But yeah, in 3D graphics z is usually distance from the camera I think.
I see, fascinatingly inconsistent :D I somehow have the urge to popularise a coordinate system where the x axis represents elevation now.
Towards or away from the center is the height, no? As in, you’re the bird at height Z observing the x-y plane under you, and the Z axis goes into you. Or away from you if you happen to be a mole under ground.
Then just to muddy things you also have the Low Lands, which aren't in Germany, but they do speak a Germanic language there. ;)
How is English then not a German dialect with pretensions? Is there a certain threshold in number of words that must originate from a different language family, or what's the logic here?
I can speak English and German which makes me able to somewhat understand written Dutch (especially if I know the context), but no chance when it's spoken.
As a German, I enjoy reading the Dutch text on supermarket products and manuals, it is a source of great fun in my family :) Children especially love it. Dutch just has so many words that sound extremely cute and funny to Germans:
"Sleep well" -> "Slaap lekker", in German "Schlaf lecker" = "Sleep tasty".
"Nuttig" -> "Useful", in German "nuttig" means "slutty"
"Huren" -> "to rent", in German "huren" means "to whore".
"Oorbellen" -> "earrings", "ear bells".
Knowing English and German also makes it possible to understand something like 50-75% of written Norwegian, Swedish, or Danish in my experience.
Apparently a part of this is due to a huge number of Low-German loanwords present in all three due to the influence of the Hanseatic league in the region during the middle ages.
Right! I speak English and Dutch, so I can read maybe less than half of German. It's just enough to be tantalising but not enough to really understand it. Likewise with Swedish.
A Dutch speaker read Afrikaans without too much effort; understanding spoken Afrikaans is a bit harder, but depending on the person it can be fine.
A Dutch speaker can't read or understand German. Some words are similar, but the same can be said about English. There are a number of differences in the grammar and alphabet.
Of course they're related languages; because I can speak English, German, and Dutch I can kind of read Swedish or Danish on account of being Germanic as well. But that doesn't make a "dialect with pretensions". We might as well say that all current Germanic languages are some sort of "dialect with pretensions" of some old Germanic language. But that doesn't really mean anything.
> A Dutch speaker can't read or understand German.
A Dutch speaker can't necessarily read or understand German. However, a Dutch person nearly always does, and often flawlessly so.
This is just wrong. I have nothing more to add, because this is just not the case. Maybe it was true 60 years ago, but not today.
I did once tell one of them something quite like that.
I was assured with a smile that the feeling is mutual.
Yep. I find it easier to understand German verbally than Dutch. I struggle when Dutch people speak to me, the way they pronounce words are hard on my ears. German feels softer.
Native Dutch speaker here. I find German softer on the ears too.
Except for Dutch in the South (Belgians and South NL), that's soft on my ears too. But not my accent, we are descendants of monsters. Why otherwise would we pronounce the G the way that we do?
Well, it's not a coincidence that the English word for the language of the Netherlands is the same the German state calls itself: "dutch" / "Deutsch".
A people and their language predated the concept of nation-states, but when the latter arrived obviously (geo-)political interests started to blur the facts.
So if you conflate the German state with Germans (I'd challenge that and view the German state as a continuation of the Prussian state), and you don't like the interests of the German state, it is predictable where you'll land on this issue.
Because of this, even if their national anthem does so, calling the Dutch Germans would infuriate them and rightly so, because it would imply justification to some for things like those happening between Russia and Ukraine right now.
I think in the end it is also a matter of "national" self-confidence. While Luxemburgish is virtually indistinguishable to the German ear from say the dialect of Cologne, Swiss-German is hardly understandable for anyone outside of Switzerland. Yet, the Swiss don't have an urge to re-label their dialect as a separate language. And the urge of the Dutch to re-lable themselves is lesser than that of Luxemburg because seemingly no one questions their identity.
Also noteworthy are the different terms for "German" in different languages, they're quite far apart: "Deutsch", "Allemagne", "Nemți", which all derive from the names of different Germanic tribes. Depending on which tribes surrounding countries (which were faster to establish nation states) were closest to, that's what they called all Germans. And it stuck.
true-ish. I'm not aware of any tribes that would give name to Deutsch and Nemti. Rather, Deutsch is the generic self-description for all tribes, and Nemti was a generic description of all tribes by slavic people (ie Niemy in polish meaining "without the ability to speak")
I thought:
Deutsch: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutons
Nemți: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemetes
But at least Deutsch does indeed appear to have other origins according to: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/deutsch
All national identities are to a large extent constructed (or less charitably: made up). So the 21st-century idea that Germans are people with a passport from the Federal Republic of Germany is not really any more or less valid than the 19th-century idea that Germans are a cultural group spanning various states including Austria (and maybe even including the Netherlands).
Edit: FYI, I've mentioned Luxemburg as a counter-example to Switzerland/Netherlands, because the state of Luxemburg attempts to have their German dialect officially recognized as a separate language…
I mean, they put umlauts on Es, that's got to count for something....
My native language is German, and I don't know whether I like it. It is the most natural to me, so no judgement -- I cannot look at it from the outside. Well, of course I like it, because I can express myself best with it.
Anyway, I absolute love Afrikaans. I also like droëwors, but that's a different topic. You should have a look at Icelandic -- it is the opposite of Afrikaans on the morphological complexity scale of Germanic languages. Quite a bit more going on with endings and such than in German. And yet it is weirdly familiar, because it is, well, also Germanic.
I am a native speaker. And I find German to be a very ugly language. Pronounciation wise. Compared to French or English. It sounds like someone is constantly having a quarrel with you.
There's this fun video from Easy German, where native speakers (Austrians in this case) express their feeling of uneasiness when flirting in German. As in, the German language not being the sexiest.
Weaknesses can become strengths. Sometimes you want to have a quarrel. When French people quarrel they must rely on changes on pitch, cadence and volume because otherwise it sounds like they are ordering baguettes at the boulanger.
Is this the game ‘Tell me you've never visited Italy without telling me you've never visited Italy’?
I invite you to listen to Danes conversing before forming an opinion on German pronunciation.
German has harsh sound. But in terms of quarrelling, I find that Korean sounds like someone is complaining all the time. But then again I have never learned Korean, so my impression would surely change.
Precisely my thought - try learning French. At some point we've been asking our teacher "but, why would they start writing so many chars (unreadable) and so many different endings". and our guess is there must've been a financial reason to do so - more chars, more money when copying manuscripts, and less chance for the common people to ever have this level of writing skills, which takes years to master.
Cool, Afrikaans is my 2nd language after German :) Groete van Duitsland boet!
I think German poetry can be very elegant and English poems feel dull in comparison. At the same time, the plainness of English makes it much better suited for songs. Lyrical German quickly sounds pretentious.
One of the things that helped me improve German was Poetry Slam contests, they are still quite popular over here in many regions, you get poetry coupled with another German property, plenty enough sarcasm.