phillipcarter 2 days ago

This article says something that seems very false to me once you step outside of the developer sphere:

> Most LLM users seem willing to change from Chat-GPT to Claude, for example.

Talk to people who aren't engineers and it's all ChatGPT. Many don't even know about the concept of an LLM or a provider, just literally "ChatGPT". The South Park episode where they parody this stuff? They call it ChatGPT. The stuff students use every year to help with homework? ChatGPT. The website that "chat.com" redirects to? ChatGPT. And cai has cornered to market on horny/lonely male teens.

The moat here is the broader consciousness that a very very large population of people have adopted. Articles like this take something technical -- the cost of switching over to an LLM, which is cheap -- as an assumption that it will happen, without taking into account just how difficult it is to change social forces.

This doesn't mean ChatGPT will forever be what people use. Maybe it will fail spectacularly in a year. But it's OpenAI's game to lose here, not the other way around.

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kibwen 2 days ago

The general public doesn't care to understand the difference between "LLM" and "ChatGPT" any more than they care to understand the difference between "web browser" and "Chrome". Most people will happily use whatever you put in front of them, and if the product is bad, they'll generally grumble and shrug their shoulders in learned helplessness rather than do the research necessary to switch to a better alternative. Discerning consumers are a rounding error.

Which is to say, the platform holders will determine who wins and loses. ChatGPT will win if they pay sufficient fealty to Microsoft, Google, and Apple.

tdesilva 2 days ago

I'd say it's more like kleenex. Lots of people ask you to 'pass them a kleenex' when their nose is runny, but they just mean tissue. They don't actually care what the brand is. Similarly for LLMs most people may not care (or maybe they will, and it will be more like Google search), especially if they just use it via some other app that calls LLM provider APIs. My anecdata so far says early adopters try multiple LLM providers and use the best one for their use-case. No clue on what non-tech folks think though.

otherme123 2 days ago

Exactly. One of my coworkers prefers Gemini to overcome the blank page hurdle, and he happily describe it as "the ChatGPT from Google". What does that mean for ChatGPT as a business? Nothing. Google would like people to use Gemini, but at least they retain this user and can target him with better ads, their real business. ChatGPT is just a layman synonym for LLM.

crabmusket 1 day ago

It amuses me that ChatGPT actually seems like a generic term already. You Chat with a Generative Pre-trained Transformer. Does what it says on the tin!

anon373839 1 day ago

The USPTO agrees with you.

"[Trademark] Registration is refused because the applied-for mark merely describes a feature, function, or characteristic of applicant’s goods and services."

https://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn97733261&docI...

joe_the_user 2 days ago

Your argument is essentially "no one will buy generic tissue when everyone calls it Kleenex". That's only powerful when ChatGPT is free. When there's price pain, we can see people adopting alternatives.

Branding is a moat but it's not a deep moat. Branding ironically works best (most profitablye) for incidental things that people exhibit to others - designer clothing is the most obvious - and this is because then brands have a social aspect (there's also branding a real signal of real superior quality - I'd buy a good brand of drill 'cause I have a rational reason to expect better quality but maintaining the quality of a branded product is more costly and hence less profitable than maintain the pure image of something like Coke and LLMs turn out not to really differentiate on quality). Whether they call LLMs "ChatGPTs" or not, people use LLMs for a result - they'll use a different LLM that gives equivalent result if they're motivated to do so. No one else is going to what brand of "ChatGPT" someone "drives", etc.

YetAnotherNick 2 days ago

> Branding is a moat but it's not a deep moat.

Let's do an opposite question. What's Google's moat? What's Apple's moat? All I hear from everyone is "X is not a moat", which while true doesn't mean company couldn't be ahead of the competition forever.

joe_the_user 2 days ago

Google's moat for search on the user side is quality, habit and integration but Google search is free and compared other "FANG" companies, Google is actually fairly vulnerable imo.

Apple's moat is people's hardware investment, their interface, their brand in a way that is socially significant as well as implying a real quality difference. Apple's overall moat is much larger than Google's.

Edit: and the specific non-moaty part of LLMs is that their answers are generic - LLMs don't have "personalities" because they are a trained average of all publicly available human language. If a given LLM had restrictions, it wouldn't be as useful.

oezi 1 day ago

Google's moat for search are the advertisers networks. Others can't bootstrap a search engine business because they don't have the advertisers to pay for it.

YetAnotherNick 1 day ago

> quality, habit and integration

> hardware investment, their interface, their brand

Exactly, you gave all the possible moats for LLMs. Not saying OpenAI has it right now, I am disagreeing with the premise that LLM provider can never have moat.

joe_the_user 1 day ago

My comment on Apple was hardware investment of Apple users. Neither Google nor Apple's own store of hardware matter in the age of "the cloud" imo.

I would agree that moats are relative and companies can stay ahead without deep moats. But I think you still the problem of the specific way that LLMs are generic. Users don't invest in an LLM, they just learn to use them and that learning can transfer. User don't get "bragging rights" for using ChatGPT rather than a competitor (almost the opposite). ChatGPT output doesn't have a "flavor" distinct from other LLMs - in fact, as a user, I want the output flavor I ask for rather than anything identifiable as ChatGPT.

YetAnotherNick 1 day ago

You mentioned list of "deep moats" and all of them are applicable to LLMs. Just to repeat "quality, habit and integration, hardware investment, their interface, their brand".

joe_the_user 1 day ago

> quality,

All LLMs are actually converging to about the same LLM, since they are trained on the same Internet/book/average-human-knowledge.

> habit

Habit matter for things people don't pay for. If a person pays, they'll go out of their way to get something for less. Microsoft's big thing is making sure end users never pay for Windows.

> integration,

Not going to matter. Every "AI application" is basically just a prompt and users can make their own prompts.

> hardware investment,

OpenAI doesn't even have a hardware investment, just a deal to use MS Azure. Other AI companies can and will just a cloud too.

> their interface,

Every LLM has the same interface. A chat window.

> their brand"

As above, brand matters for either habit (which again, only matters when thing cheap or free), social signaling (which a LLM choice won't give you) or actual differences in quality (which LLMs don't have).

YetAnotherNick 16 hours ago

> since they are trained on the same Internet/book/average-human-knowledge.

By this logic every search engine should converge to same thing? Again I am not talking about current gen llm, just saying your assertion that the quality would remain converged forever isn't substantiated enough.

> Habit matter for things people don't pay for

This is so baseless and ridiculous. e.g. Excel/Adobe isn't ahead of competition for features.

> OpenAI doesn't even have a hardware investment

https://www.reuters.com/technology/artificial-intelligence/o...

dingnuts 2 days ago

Google and Apple's moat in the mobile world is the monopoly Qualcomm has on modems and those two players being the only ones who can afford them, but nobody wants to talk about that.

yifanl 2 days ago

Google's moat with this current wave of AI is pretty obvious: They own the compute resources inhouse.

Apple isn't immediately seeking to compete in this field, presumably because they don't see a deep enough moat.

phillipcarter 2 days ago

Like I said, this is OpenAI's game to lose, not someone else's.

adventured 1 day ago

> Branding is a moat but it's not a deep moat.

Branding is an extraordinary moat in fact and it is very deep. That's why you can walk into CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, Target, Costco and buy Kleenex and pay a brand mark-up for it, and they have a lot of shelf space in most stores. For no great reason other than brand and people keep buying it - that magic branded paper - by the billions of dollars worth every year.

The same is true for cereal products. $6 for a tiny box of branded, sugar loaded, garbage cereal? Laughable, absurd, and yet people just keep buying it. $3 for a little can of soup, outrageous, and people just keep paying it just to get the brand. It's all for the brand.

The same goes for branded over the counter healthcare products, such as Advil, or countless cough & cold products and supplements. How is Advil still such a massive brand? The brand value is very, very deep. It is deeply entrenched into the consumer thinking process, so much so they commonly think Advil is meaningfully superior to generic labels.

The same is true for the sugar water of Coke and Pepsi. Or 5Hour Energy. Or Monster. Or RedBull. There is nothing particularly special about any of it other than branding + routine. The flavors are fairly easy to mimic or even surpass. Also goes for branded bottled water, most of which is silly labeling, the height of bullshit branding.

$45,000 - $60,000 for a middle tier metal shit box of a vehicle, from any number of the automakers in the bottom 90% in terms of quality. Consumers could go used for $15,000 - $20,000. Instead of piling up an extra $150,000 in net wealth over a couple decades, they do the really dumb thing instead, because they can't control themselves (extremely poor impulse control, same reason they're all so obese and unhappy). They buy those cars to keep up with their peers in lifestyle projection, same reason they buy the brands in anything. If you get position as a brand, you've got consumers in hand (then it's just down to fighting with the other brands).

xnx 2 days ago

> The moat here is the broader consciousness that a very very large population of people have adopted.

That's not nothing, but switching costs are very low, and an alternative could arise faster than the switch from Friendster to Myspace or Myspace to Facebook.

theolivenbaum 2 days ago

Specially because there are no network effects and no lock in.

ljlolel 2 days ago

Only lock in could be if they become smart enough to truly know you and small preferences as a person that would be hard to repeat all the nuances to the next chatbot

otherme123 2 days ago

Me and my coworkers pass around opinions about what LLM does what task better. The only conclusion is that they are 100% interchangeable, some prefer ChatGPT over Claude, and that just means that when ChatGPT credits get exhausted, they switch tab to Claude, Gemini or whatever their second option is. If ChatGPT started charging money or closed, they won't care at all.

scarface_74 1 day ago

For production workloads, the LLMs are interchangeable.

As a product, ChatGPT + Python + web search + the interface are miles better than anything else except in some use cases I find Google’s NotebookLM to be a better product

bee_rider 2 days ago

If people don’t know what the LLM behind the chat service is, then it seems likely (or plausible at least) that one could easily replace the chat bot used by these services with one backed by a different LLM, right?

WorkerBee28474 2 days ago

Just like ChatGPT changes out models silently. Even if it's mentioned to the user, they don't care.

moffkalast 2 days ago

People just want a solution to their problem. Does a Google user care what iteration of their index engine they're using? No, they just want a picture of a god dang hot dog I tell ya hwat.

mbesto 2 days ago

> Most LLM users seem willing to change from Chat-GPT to Claude, for example

There is some nuance to this. If you're building an application that embeds an LLM, then your "user" might be a prompt engineer, not necessarily the user using the application. It just so happens you can use the embedded magic using the prompt yourself.

Example: https://asana.com/product/ai

Not a single mention of Chat-GPT or Claude, but if you google you'll see they use Claude under the hood. So I would argue the branding is actually "AI" not ChatGPT.

It's a bit like Crypto and Bitcoin. Not all Crypto is bitcoin, but all bitcoin uses crypto to power it. People recognize both the branding of Crypto and Bitcoin.

Workaccount2 2 days ago

This is like Bitcoin.

It's objectively a very bad crypto. It's the prototype and everything it does there is a coin that does it 100x better now.

But man, Bitcoin, that name has serious influence and staying power. It's a testament to the power of branding and being the first mover.

ajmurmann 2 days ago

Bitcoin inherently relies on buy-in for its value. It's a shared fiction that becomes real because we share it. In that regard it's similar to countries. I literally cannot switch from Bitcoin to another coin and get the same value unless we collectively do it. It's a inherent property of its usage as a currency. I can switch from ChatGPT to Claude though without anyone else doing so and I get the same value. In fact, if Claude is superior I might actually get more value than if everyone switched because I now have a leg up on everyone else.

indigoabstract 2 days ago

> It's a shared fiction that becomes real because we share it.

It's called the network effect, I believe.

Nevermark 1 day ago

There is a lot of truth to that.

Which means OpenAI really dropped the ball calling their first big success "ChatGPT". "Chat" was good, but three random (from the user's standpoint) letters? Ugh.

Whereas "Bitcoin" is practically Platonic. Branding platinum.

PittleyDunkin 2 days ago

I'm one of those people—I use a variety of models but I call them all "chatgpt" (ironically, not including OpenAI's product). For the most part the model used doesn't really impact usage or quality that much, at least for my use-cases. It helps that I tend to keep my expectations very low. I think it's going to become a generic term for "llm chat bot" pretty rapidly, if it's not already metastasized.

gnfargbl 2 days ago

I agree. The author makes the argument that airlines have a terrible business partly because consumers don't have any brand loyalty and Coca-Cola has a wonderful business partly because consumers have brand loyalty. What distinguishes those cases? Why should we consider LLMs to be more like one business or the other?

kyoji 2 days ago

Brand loyalty might matter when the cost of a good is relatively low and the availability high. I can basically choose between coke or Pepsi anywhere, and they cost about the same, so why not go with my favorite?

For airlines availability with a preferred carrier is not guaranteed, and prices can vary wildly. Do I have so much brand loyalty that I will pay perhaps 2x the cost? Like most people, I wouldn't.

In terms of availability and cost, LLM providers are much closer to Coke than to an airline.

ljlolel 2 days ago

An article last year said that LLMs quickly become like brands of bottled water

scarface_74 2 days ago

Yes you will pay 2x the cost for your preferred airline when it’s not your money and you are getting reimbursed by your company.

scarface_74 2 days ago

The major airlines very much have brand loyalty via loyalty rewards programs, lounges, and cobranded credit cards.

If you are business traveler gaining status by flying a preferred airline and using other people’s money, you aren’t going to go to the cheapest airline.

Most of the profit from the Big three airlines come from business travel and credit cards

ajmurmann 2 days ago

This! I'd argue that the only reason loyalty might not always matter is because I am frequently not given a real choice because a given route likely has a very limited number of airlines offering flights and those might be dramatically different in number of stops, price and times. Air travel is one area where I frequently wonder how many benefits of it being a free market on paper we are actually getting. There is limited choice and direct competition seems limited

scarface_74 2 days ago

One of my semi-frequent routes is between MCO (current home) and ABY - a small airport in Southwest GA where my parents live.

There are only two commercial flights a day, both on Delta and both to ATL. A round trip ticket is $540 for two 1 hour segments (MCO - ATL - ABY).

A round trip ticket from MCO (Orlando) to LAX (Los Angeles) is about the same price

Of course I know the trick for former - book through a partner AirFrance for 17K miles

throwaway314155 2 days ago

> What distinguishes those cases?

It's in the article. Making coke is relatively easy compared to running an airline.

> Why should we consider LLMs to be more like one business or the other?

Also in the article. LLM's are analogous to airlines.

gnfargbl 2 days ago

You are doing the thing of asking if I read the article without actually directly asking if I read the article. Please don't do that, at least without carefully reading the comment that you're replying to.

My specific point was that the article doesn't appear to support the assertions that it makes about brand loyalty.

throwaway314155 2 days ago

I'm simply following the HN guidelines on the subject which prohibit directly asking if people have read the article.

It's a pretty bad guideline in my opinion but my opinion isn't worth shit here.

I'll re-read your comment when I have more time. Sorry if I missed the point.

gnfargbl 2 days ago

Most people who bother to comment on HN have an interesting opinion, and I value yours.

The point of that guideline is to ensure that the conversation is substantive. Repeating points from the article with an assertion that those points are indeed in the article doesn't really add to the conversation and it's something that I do find frustrating on HN, which is why I mentioned it. I agree that it isn't a great guideline.

yawnxyz 1 day ago

they say running an airline is easy, that's why you're easily underpriced

that should also apply to drinks, in which case coke should be underpriced by pepsi

and it should also happen to every other category of beverage

the author's argument falls apart as soon as you talk about something that's not the brand Coca Cola

yawnxyz 1 day ago

is Coca Cola the exception here?

"industry structure" should be about the industry, so this should mean other beverages like tea and water should also be strong industries?

but no they're not, they're terrible just like airlines

HarHarVeryFunny 2 days ago

Having masses of people using ChatGPT and not paying for it doesn't make for a successful business. The people who are willing to pay are more likely to be aware of the alternatives and choose the one best suited for their use.

For many school kids I think it's all just "AI", not "ChatGPT".

tokioyoyo 2 days ago

We said the same about Google, Uber, DoorDash, Facebook, TikTok, <insert any other unprofitable business that eventually became profitable>. Sure, most of them are making money through ads, but for that you need some audience. There’s absolutely survivorship bias here, but eventually it might just pan out.

kaptainscarlet 2 days ago

That's true. Some business models succeed in the most unexpected of ways. They can pivot and change the recipe until it works.

scarface_74 1 day ago

No one ever said that about Facebook. Facebook was profitable way before it IPO’d and only did so because it had more than 500 owners and has to do reporting anyway as a public company.

Google also didn’t go through billions of dollars and was profitable when it IPOd.

DoorDash still isn’t profitable.

But either way, your argument suffers from survivorship bias. There are thousands of companies that fail and disappear into obscurity

bhouston 2 days ago

I expect it to sort of be like AWS, Azure and Google Cloud.

Many people started with AWS as it was first, and it leads to quite a bit of momentum in terms of market share long past when there was significant differentiators. It is just that there are switching costs and most people have already learnt AWS's APIs.

JohnMakin 2 days ago

What are the significant differentiators? I have worked much of a decade in the cloud infrastructure space, and from the POV of a business owner, AWS is such a stupidly superior product that I could not even imagine considering the alternatives. Google offers mostly AWS products but "googleized," and their support is practically nonexistent. Microsoft support isn't as bad, but their products are unreliable at best (from my view) and what differentiators they do have, which to me is better support for MS products in general don't really matter to me or my business at all.

These are the big 3 so the only ones I mentioned. I know alibaba/yandex/digitalocean/etc exist but lack as much experience with them so only commented on the big 3.

bhouston 1 day ago

I've used both AWS and Google Cloud. I prefer Google Cloud myself and especially Google Cloud Run - which I've written about here: https://benhouston3d.com/blog/why-i-left-kubernetes-for-goog...

ljlolel 2 days ago

Good comparison

JohnMakin 2 days ago

It seems like the points you're making are in support of the statement you are quoting - if most people don't know the concept of an LLM or a provider, why would that make it difficult for them to switch? Seems like ChatGPT's only competitive advantage here if I am understanding what you wrote correctly is name recognition. If ChatGPT's "game" to lose here is just staying relevant in the public consciousness, it would appear to me that the main point of this article, that building LLM's is not going to be a great business, is largely correct. I would expect a company such as OpenAI with such fantastic claims they make to have some kind of technical advantage over their competitors.

og_kalu 1 day ago

It's not just name recognition though. The chatgpt site had 3.7B visits last month(#8 in Internet Worldwide Traffic). Most of Open ai's revenue is from paid subscribers. Nothing else is even close.

Just because you can theoretically easily switch or that you brand has grown to the point of generic doesn't mean switching is going to happen. Habits are sticky and branding is incredibly powerful.

Anyone can use bing easily. In fact, bing is the default search engine on the default browser of the OS with by far the majority of users and stil...

tk90 1 day ago

Exactly. Reminds me of all the "technically superior" crypto coins that failed, and what ended up winning were the popular memecoins like dogecoin. There's a lot to say about distribution and what "the masses" end up adopting, whether or not it's the "better" product!

littlestymaar 2 days ago

That's true, but that doesn't mean much as long as these particular users are free users that don't bring any money to the company (and cost a lot compared to similar users in other technology companies).

The real business is enterprise API endpoint billed by the millions of tokens, and in that particular domain OpenAI has literally zero market lock-in (and they probably depends more on Microsoft sales power than on their own brand value).

Unless OpenAI can show that they are able to make money from the mass of casual users, they are in a tough spot.

scarface_74 2 days ago

ChatGPT is not just an LLM.

It is:

- Dall-e for image generation

- a real time Python interpreter that can run Python code to answer relevant questions

- can search the web to retrieve and validate information

- has the infrastructure to handle processing at scale

PittleyDunkin 2 days ago

Well that's just a branding failure.

scarface_74 2 days ago

How is it a branding failure that ChstGPT - the product - augments the weaknesses of LLM by adding more capabilities?

PittleyDunkin 2 days ago

Well for one thing it calls itself "chat" when it offers so much more.

Nevermark 1 day ago

ChatGPT-Py-D-E has some rhythm, but it just isn't a good branding direction.

At some point, they are going to have to rebrand. Which means they left a lot of first mover branding value on the table.

PittleyDunkin 1 day ago

The initial branding was inherently weak; who cares about chat if you can theoretically offer more than chat. But what do I know?

danpalmer 1 day ago

Just because people say "ChatGPT" doesn't mean they actually mean ChatGPT. I drink "coke" from multiple brands. I've seen people say "ChatGPT" and then actually use Bard.

Being the brand name of the industry is powerful, certainly, but it doesn't mean as much as it sounds like just based on usage numbers.

og_kalu 1 day ago

The chatgpt site had 3.7B visits last month(#8 in Internet worldwide traffic). none of the other LLM vendors are even close.

You're right that there are people who say GPT and mean something else but the vast majority of LLM users are actually using ChatGPT.

627467 2 days ago

There's an interesting parallel between the subjective nature of LLMs (being blackboxes of nondeterministic output) and brands. The whole point of investing in brands is to create a moat. And maybe LLM are converging but because they are hard to predict there will always be factor that people's psyche will favour

dehrmann 2 days ago

Google users are theoretically willing to become Bing users, though I'll admit that ChatGPT is the consumer leader mostly because of brand recognition and being the first mover.

onlyrealcuzzo 2 days ago

> This doesn't mean ChatGPT will forever be what people use. Maybe it will fail spectacularly in a year. But it's OpenAI's game to lose here, not the other way around.

The AVERAGE person still does not even know what ChatGPT is.

At most, 1 in 10 people have ever used ChatGPT.

This is like saying Social Networking is MySpace's to lose. Not really. Most people hadn't heard of Social Media or MySpace when MySpace was already huge and - by far - the biggest player.

It is likely easier for Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, or Google to introduce >50% of the population to an LLM than for ChatGPT to get from ~2.5% to >50%.

ChatGPT monthly users is about 1 in 40 people, by the way.

Does that mean ChatGPT is doomed to fail. No.

ChatGPT could easily be the winner.

But declaring the race over unless ChatGPT blows both its legs off seems very premature.

brookst 1 day ago

> This is like saying Social Networking is MySpace's to lose

But it was. If MySpace had evolved, and stayed ahead of trends, and cannibalized their own products, and really understood the value of social networks... they could have leveraged their initial lead to a dominant position.

Saying the market is ChatGPT's to lose does not mean they can be lazy or incompetent or even just merely good. It means that all things equal, if OpenAI executes at an equal level to their competitors, ChatGPT will win.

It's like saying a marathon is the front-runner's race to lose. It's simply true. It does not mean the race is over.

og_kalu 1 day ago

>The AVERAGE person still does not even know what ChatGPT is.

Who is "the average person" here ?

How unknown do you think the site that got over 3.7B visits (#8 in internet worldwide traffic) last month is ?

The idea that chatgpt is this unknown thing doesn't hold up to any scrutiny at all.

shanusmagnus 1 day ago

That insight, or lack of it, is esp surprising giving the example of how sticky the Coke brand is.

moffkalast 2 days ago

OAI has certainly positioned themselves culturally the same way as Google did for search engines. Google this, Tweet that, ask ChatGPT.

We know now how much actual competition[0] Google had after the dust had settled, in all practical terms - zero. Even after all the SEO spam and enshittification they haven't lost any notable market lead.

Time will tell if ChatGPT ends up that way but unless OAI implodes (which isn't all that unlikely) they're on the way there.

[0] https://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share

quonn 2 days ago

But Google came years late. I used multiple search engines before Google finally emerged as a winner. altavista, excite, hotbot and others; there was a huge hype around the Lycos IPO and then alltheweb was a thing for a time and then Google won.

So being first does not necessarily mean winning.

And Twitter had strong network effects.

wkat4242 2 days ago

Yeah but early stronghold brands don't always keep the market. Before word there was WordPerfect. Before Excel there was lotus 123. Everyone swore by both but they have been dead for decades.

It's funny because ChatGPT is such a bad mainstream branding. Technical name, hard to pronounce, nobody even knows what GPT stands for. They really got overwhelmed by their own success otherwise they would have done more on the branding side to appeal to mainstream users. But their first mover advantage won't last forever.

adventured 1 day ago

ChatGPT / GPT has acquired "google it" status in the culture.

lkrubner 2 days ago

There is no money to be made from individual users. All of the money comes from companies building something on top of the LLMs, and those of us building startups on top of LLMs are very much aware of the differences between the LLMs. And, to the point made in the article, it is trivially easy for us to switch from one LLM to another, so the LLMs don't have much of a moat and therefore they cannot charge much money.

HarHarVeryFunny 2 days ago

Probably true in the long run, but at the moment OpenAI is making about 90% of their revenue from ChatGPT subscriptions.