I'm a huge fan of Real Genius. This comes at a real oddly coincidental time...
Back when I was probably 16, so '86, I came across Robert Woodhead, probably on Usenet, probably with some mention that he worked on the movie. So I sent him an e-mail and told him how much I loved the movie. He wrote back and told me a little about the computer graphics that he did for the movie. So every time I see some of the graphics scenes, I think of him.
A few days ago I was watching a Youtube video "10 things you didn't know about Real Genius", and it showed those computer graphics.
And I thought "I wonder what he's up to." Turns out he's done some kind of interesting things, has a github, etc. So, I fired off another e-mail to him ("I'm sure you don't remember, but back in '86 you graciously replied to an e-mail I sent you and I've often thought of that kindness.") He happens to live where I visit typically a couple times a year, so we've set up going out to coffee.
2 e-mails, 40 years apart, and then this. Coincidences, man.
Good example fow how the internet is/was made to connect. The thought almost feels quaint by now...
I think this is the vid you referred to, in case anyone else is curious (I was)
That is absolutely the video, thanks for finding it. Also of interesting note: Real Genius was originally going to be more raunchy, but the director steered it towards more geek content.
Are you sure it was '86? I was using IBM's BITNET in 88 from UMASS before Al Gore invented the Internet lol. Email took 2 days to go from Boston to London, passing thru a node in California before routing to the UK. I got on Usenet in 88 or 89, and had fun chats with professors at Caltech and elsewhere using the finger command and talk (with tee pipe to dev/tty and a file, so I can play back the whole session.) I am vague in my memory about how and when I went from being n BITNET to ARPANet/Internet, but I do remember Gore was busy promoting the Information Superhighway around that time, and it was the time the first iteration of excitement around neural networks was cooling off... Memories! Real Genius was a fun movie to watch and an inspiration for getting into lasers.
UPDATE according to ChatGPT:
ARPANET itself began in 1969 at a handful of research universities, so some US universities had access as early as the early 1970s. However, many institutions that didn’t have a direct ARPANET connection joined BITNET in 1981—a store‐and‐forward network that was easier and less expensive to join but often led to long email delays (sometimes on the order of a day or two, especially on international links). By the mid‑to‑late 1980s, with the emergence of NSFNET (which provided a TCP/IP backbone) and the broader adoption of Internet protocols, many universities transitioned from BITNET to the more immediate, real‑time connectivity of the Internet.
In other words, while ARPANET was available to some US universities from the early 1970s, widespread academic use via the modern Internet (with NSFNET and TCP/IP) really picked up in the mid‑1980s. The long delays you remember (such as a two‑day email from Boston to London) were more typical of BITNET’s store‑and‑forward mechanism rather than ARPANET’s near‑real‑time communications.
That's funny, because at lunch my coworker mentioned my comment without realizing it was me who made it and he was trying to figure out how we had access to e-mail back then. It might have been '87, no later than mid '88 because that's when I left HP Loveland and I'm quite sure it happened before then. I'd put money on the e-mail having been sent with bang-paths.
You mention being on Usenet in 88 or 89, which was after "the great reorganization". I was on Usenet for a while before the reorg, so that'd cement the earlier end at 85-86. I definitely had e-mail, but never used BITNET or ARPANet. I do recall sending e-mail to a crazy girl in maybe Tazmania that loved wombats, and it taking <a day turnaround (the girlfriend of a summer student in the lab).
He didn't say ARPANET. He said Usenet. A whole lot of Usenet was store-and-forward (over UUCP).
Yes but I was referring to "email him ... [in 1986]" and wondering about what he meant by "email" exactly in 1986...
If you were connected to usenet, you could send emails, also delivered by uucp.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc976 (Feb 1986, but it mostly sets out as standards the practices that are already widely in place).
Indeed, RFC977 (1986) quotes a 1985 message from someone on unitek (a uucp node) requesting a reply by email (while the word "mail" was more often used before this):
Date: 25 Sep 85 23:51:52 GMT
Reply-To: [email protected] (Hon-Man Wong)
Distribution: net.all
Organization: Unitek Technologies Corporation
Lines: 12
...
Please reply by E-mail. Thanks in advance.
I can't exactly recall if we called it "e-mail" at the time or "mail". I do recall emailing in probably 1985; I recall distinctly setting up a cute multi-line graphic "you have mail" shell notifier when I was primarily dialing in on an HP-110 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_110 ) with the 16 line display, it was a loaner because the 24 line Plus model was out in 1985 and everyone wanted that one.
It was a lot of bang paths, where you'd list your e-mail address from a pretty well known location, like "hpfcla!hpilsb!linsomniac" and the sender would have to know or use trial and error to say "I bet ihnp4 can reach hpfcla.
You know those viral videos of kids tossing a ball the hits a pot that bounces over to a pan that bounces to another pot then to a kettle then into a cup? That's what sending e-mail was like back then. At least via UUCP.
I love this! So little effort for so much outcome. In fact, I'll try it ... long shot but I'd love to join too!
When are you and him grabbing coffee
Probably around the holidays, I'm not sure we'll be making our usual summer trip because of a wedding.
I first saw this film when I was a kid, and it made a lasting impression on me. Unfortunately, it feels like the lesson of the film has not been learned: too many "geniuses" over the past 40 years have failed to consider the negative social consequences of the technology that they create. These naive geniuses are all too happy to solve technical problems and cash paychecks given to them by powers that turn out to be malevolent (despite draping themselves in a costume of benevolence).
Question authority, and question your own role in the power structure. It's a moral imperative.
Also a lot of lessons for the average tech employee - working long hours for some goal and then at the end realize it’s going to be used for evil and you’re all about to get laid off anyway.
Real Genius was one of the things that helped me to soldier on through my (terrible) high school experience surrounded by bullies and knuckleheads, knowing that if I was lucky, I could have at least a good four years afterwards "among my own people." And as you said, it also helped to lay the ethical foundation of always looking at the potential applications of technology before deciding to work on it. Too few software "engineers" have taken that lesson to heart.
Heavy lifting for a silly 80s comedy movie.
Pro tip look for an industry that works for big capable customers that can defend themselves. Helps to create a structure of accountability inside a company that you can connect to as someone trying to have a positive career. Doesn't mean everything will be perfect, but it is easier than pushing against the stream in a company that "serves"[1] a disaggregated (and thus mostly defenseless) customer base.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_(The_Twilight_Zon...
Lots of authority-questioning…
From the perspective of conspiratorial thinking, fringe “I’m special because I see the surprising, simple real key to everything” economic schools, and anti-enlightenment politics :-(
Trying to make oneself into the unquestionable authority isn't questioning authority.
You're absolutely right, and, while it's good for life-karma, it's not so good for HN-karma.
No one bullies harder than the nerds around here. Such a hateful bunch of ignorant fools.
Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone here, for sure -- some people are absolutely lovely, like DonHopkins -- but perhaps 90%.
But that's always the problem with majorities, they follow the lead of their leader, and damn their conscience and other points of view, wielding their power like a cudgel. They tend to bully minorities of every kind, especially ideological minorities.
"There is nothing more important than compassion, and only the truth is its equal."
> No one bullies harder than the nerds around here. Such a hateful bunch of ignorant fools.
I’m not sure if this is true. We’re all people, and people have tendencies to other others and seek belonging, that can hurt people.
I don’t think this community is particularly bad. And I’ll add that it’s probably the most “civil” of all the sites I’ve used over the years (usenet, slashdot, fark, lobste.rs, kuroshin, plastic, digg, reddit, netslaves, 4chan).
Ignorant fools, perhaps. But bullies, I don’t think so.
I think HN is coming around, slowly.
Years ago, if you so much as suggested that a software developer had any ethical culpability when their software was used for evil, you'd have the entire peanut gallery at your throat. "How dare you blame the developer. It's his manager's fault! It's the company's fault! He can't control how his software is used! He's just implementing a turret pointing algorithm. It's not his fault who the user aims it at!"
I think years of seeing the real-world fallout of ethically questionable tech projects is finally starting to soften that stance. You're not just pushing protobufs around. Look up once in a while and see how your work is being deployed! You're doing this!
From memory, having last seen it in the '80s:
"Why do you wear that toy on your head?" "Because if I wear it anywhere else, it...chafes"
"What's that?" "A laser beam, bozo!" "What are we supposed to do?" "Follow it!"
"Your stutter has improved" "I've been giving myself shock treatment" "...Up the voltage"
"You're laborers, you're supposed to be laboring. That's what you get for not having an education!"
"It's a coherent beam of light" "So that means it talks?"
Of course, the non-quote where one of the kids at the study table stands up, screams repeatedly, and leaves, and with no reaction one of the kids at the periphery of the room moves to sit in his place.
And of course: "If there's ever anything I can do for you, or, more to the point, to you..." "Can you hammer a six inch spike through a board with your penis?" "Well, not right now..."
Real Genius had a significant impact on me...
"I think I'm getting brain fry!"
"OK Mitch, I'm gonna make it up to you. Let's just pause...take a step back. No, I was wrong, I'm sorry: take a step forward. Now, take a step back...and now we're cha cha-ing!"
I still use this when pair debugging.
>where one of the kids at the study table stands up, screams repeatedly, and leaves, and with no reaction one of the kids
Also the part where they are gassing Kent in his dorm room, and another student passes them by with just a "hey" and keeps walking while they are wearing gas masks and clearly Up To No Good.
A classic "show, don't tell" example as you have all the information you need to know about the sort of place this school is from that scene.
“I never sleep I had a roommate once but I drove her nuts I mean really nuts they had to take her away in an ambulance I knitted you a sweater.” that’s from memory so probably not 100% but was my sister’s favorite line.
Heh when Mitch goes to her dorm in the middle of the night and she’s using one of those giant floor sanders to refinish her dorm room floor is pretty effing funny.
I think it was a floor planer. Jordan was awesome.
Mitch: "..um, I can't start." Jordan: "Weird."
Literally every line from that movie is so quotable.
"Would you classify that as a launch problem, or a design problem?"
"They're beauticians?!" "Not yet"
"These military types are so untrusting"
I still use the "I'm only saying this because I care: there are lots of decaffinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing" retort in work meetings that get too heated. That entire scene[1] is one of my favorites.
I never watched Real Genius, so when I read Andre Lamothe's game programming books I didn't get any of the jokes.
Real Genius made college look like a lot of fun. And to a very young kid Mitch, Chris, and Jordan was my motivation. I was a first gen college bound student who had a vague notion of what university would be like. And it wasn’t that far off the mark. I did work with lasers. I had a weird roommate. I streaked on the quad after a snow storm. College was challenging a lot of the time and also fun some of the time.
I still watch this movie and encourage my son to watch it with me.
Thank you and rest in peace, Mr. Kilmer.
Kilmer, Jarret, Meyrink, and Gries all rendered performances of scientists and engineers that are honestly more realistic and more human than anything I've seen since except possibly McKinnon's in the 2016 "Ghostbusters". Also Atherton's performance was top-notch as the villain.
This remains my favorite movie and the inspiration for me to go into STEM when I saw it as a 10-year-old.
Kilmer was a rare, if difficult, talent, and I'm so sorry we lost him so early.
I thought he was awesome in The Saint and that it was an awesome movie, complete with a fantastic soundtrack from that era:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajLjmtyx0_o&list=PL0r_mFZtkX...
The Saint did have an awesome soundtrack, and I forgot all about that! Thanks!
Just in case anybody else was confused by the title…
The article is from 2015, but Kilmer died yesterday (April 1, 2025).
I completely misinterpreted the title.
I thought "Real Genius" and "Film Nerd" was referring to "Val Kilmer", like it was saying "RIP Val Kilmer, a real genius and film nerd that culture deserves" instead of "RIP Val Kilmer, who worked at Real Genius, the film that nerd culture deserves".
I must say that I never heard about this movie and I'm happy that this is a recommendation of a 80s movie
Indeed, I hadn't heard of the movie either, but just added it on my watchlist in case it pops up on one of the streaming services.
His performance as Doc Holliday in Tombstone is a work of art.
RIP Val Kilmer
"I'll be your huckleberry" – a great line in a tense scene.
I can always count on an eye-roll from my wife when I have the rare chance to drop the "I've not yet begun to defile myself" line, haha... ah great now I need to go re-watch Tombstone
That whole scene is amazing:
“I will not be pawed at. Thank you very much”
“I know, how about a spelling contest?!”
It’s been a while since I’ve seen Tombstone (I think I’ll watch this evening in tribute), but even with that I have the exact tonality of all the quotes listed here replaying perfectly in my head.
Genius performance.
Favorite scene from Real Genius, the group shot of a bunch of them studying for finals in the student lounge.
One guy gets up and starts screaming in frustration at the book and then the room and finally runs out.
Everyone looks up briefly like nothing happened and then somebody gets up and takes his seat, like "oh look, a more comfortable study chair."
I liked Val Kilmer in most films, but specially on Heat (1995). I think it was his best acting ever.
I love _Heat_, EXCEPT for the ending. (Spoilers) It just feels too forced as "the good guy has to win". So, I always stop it when the good guy cop says "He's gone!". It's much more in character with the bad guy; basically his entire career up to that point was being conservative and playing the long time, and I just didn't see the motivation for him to go after the cop and reverse his core policies. IMHO, it's a much better movie that way.
I think he was always great, but found him especially hilarious in "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang".
I love that movie and I have massive crush on that girl.
"I never sleep, I don't know why. I had a roommate and I drove her nuts, I mean really nuts, they had to take her away in an ambulance and everything. But she's okay now, but she had to transfer to an easier school, but I don't know if that had anything to do with being my fault. But listen, if you ever need to talk or you need help studying just let me know, 'cause I'm just a couple doors down from you guys and I never sleep, okay?"
I will rewatch Top Secret with my daughter this weekend.
Me too!
I will get Deja Vu.
The greatest practical joke I ever played was on my parents, and completely innocently, meaning NOT on purpose:
I recommended them to see "Top Secret" when I was in 9th Grade. My Catholic parents!
They came home and my mother said, "We are never listening to a movie recommendation from you ever again."
Val Kilmer's playfulness shines as he departs on April Fool's day - a real genius move. Thanks for the good times Val!
Oh, good God, Val Kilmer is dead. The Real Genius Knight, jaw-snap Iceman, Jim Morrison v 2, oh good God, a big piece of me. Gone.
I had a ticket to see his one-man show a few years ago in DC but he had to cancel for health reasons; whatever actually took him down had been going for a while now. I'm sorry we didn't get to see more of him.
RIP. Still waiting for someone to complete the final exam from Real Genius: https://imgur.com/a/real-genius-exam-questions-SjBhm
Nobody has mentioned the less geeky but still excellent remake of The Saint.
A film that started a life long love affair of phones with keyboards (hacking scenes with one of the original Nokia 9000 phones, which I have owned the 9290 and e90). It featured some of the same smirking jokey presence that Kilmer was known for, but with more action and political intrigue.
It’s my very minor claim to fame that I am part of the voice-over in a couple of the singing scenes (the rat race club gypsies and the choir when he’s running for the embassy IIRC - haven’t seen the movie for a couple of decades). Made some sweet cash as a teenager doing it! :)
I love this movie. I have a masters in Physics and somewhat blame this movie for it. It's also the most accurate depiction of physicists that I've seen in media. We're not the nerds from Big Bang Theory-- we're just normal, if typically very idiosyncratic people
Turkey Creek Jack Johnson: Why do you do it? Doc Holliday: Wyatt is my friend. Turkey Creek Jack Johnson: Friend? Hell, I got lots of friends. Doc Holliday: I don’t.
Goodbye Doc Holliday.
Real Genius was my actual favorite movie growing up. I used to watch it every few years, then slowed down so I wouldn't wear it out. Loved all the nerdy high-tech hijinks and the characters! My path into engineering was already assumed but this set it in stone. I went to the university that had a tour closest to the movie I could picture.
"Mitch finds her sanding her dorm room floor late one night and she uses the beautician party as an excuse to test a rebreather she designed herself."
Student beauticians
Real Genius is a great film in many ways, marred only by the assumption that a military laser is a bad thing to be working on — I always thought that it would be neat to do. But the characters are great, a ton of the plot is great. It’s worth watching! In a lot of ways the later film PCU (also fun) ripped off a ton of the same plot points.
Now, where can one find the review the film deserves? This is definitely not it.
> Real Genius is a great film in many ways, marred only by the assumption that a military laser is a bad thing to be working on
I wouldn't call it "marred" like it was a small detail in an otherwise good movie. It's pretty much the central lesson of the movie. The whole third act was about the ethics of working on weapons, particularly how engineers, if they're not careful, will focus on the "cool technology" aspect and fail to account for the real application(s) of their work. If you really think working on weapons would be neat, I'm not sure what there is left for you to get out of Real Genius.
I have seen and enjoyed quite a few Val Kilmer movies, but his special appearance in 'Top Gun:Maverick' was heartwarming (the scene where he jovially asks Maverick, "who was the better pilot between the two of us").
Tombstone and Saint were such nice movies too. Underrated, with a distinct comedic touch. A talent gone before his time.
Many years ago Val Kilmer and his mini entourage sat at a table adjacent to me at the Bellagio in Las Vegas. He was very gracious with the handful of passers-by who recognized him. At one point we made eye contact, and exchanged a friendly nod.
He was in some great films. What a legend.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43553573
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43554329
there are already a couple of posts on val kilmers death
this post is more about the movie Real Genius
Top Secret was his best movie, IMNSHO...
ctrl+f the doors
Looks like I'm the first. Panned by the critics, but excellent movie about the craze of the 60s leaving a purely countercultural vision slightly aside (already thoroughly documented) but showing how it damaged one of its major stars.
For a period of time, I couldn't tell if Val Kilmer was Jim Morrison or it was the other way around. Will be missed.
I have a Guild Wars 2 character named Wanda Trossler. To this day no one has gotten the reference.
Real Genius and Wargames made me want to do science for a living.
War games was incredibly unusual too. The script writers, this was their first screenplay, they had no idea thay no one in hollywood cared about technical accuracy in scripts and spent a whole lot of time trying to get the tech details correct.
Also, not sure if you missed it, but Manhattan Project was part of the trifecta for me from that era that fed my desire to grow up to do intellectually difficult things.
Every time I watch timeless "Top Secret!" I can spot a gag I haven't noticed before, combined geniuses of Zucker bros, Jim Abrahams, Val Kilmer and the rest of the cast.
That movie was such a foundational document for me, and (obviously) for many other nerdy GenX kids.
I found this site years (decades!) ago, and was happy to discover it's still there:
https://monkeybagel.com/culture/movies.html
The blurb there for _Real Genius_:
"The most accurate portrayal of geeks in the wild I've ever seen. The geeks in Real Genius LOOK, ACT and TALK like geeks. And Jordan gave me hope that I'd someday -- just maybe -- kiss a girl on the lips."
I remember a discussion of this film on a long-running private listserv back in the late 90s or early 00s about possible real-world antecedents for some of the characters, including and especially Jordan. A proto-web site existed for this person where she elaborated on her connection to the writers of the film, and more or less confirmed that she was "Jordan", or at least the inspo for it, but of course I can find no trace of this now.
Anyway, between TOP SECRET, REAL GENIUS, WILLOW, TOMBSTONE, HEAT, and TOP GUN, he's about as inconic as an actor can get. For a dose of maybe less blockbustery work, seek out 2002's THE SALTON SEA where Kilmer is joined by Adam Goldberg, Luis Guzman, Anthony LaPaglia, Peter Sarsgaarad, BD Wong, R. Lee Ermey (!) and in a spectacular turn Vincent D'Onofrio.
Underrated works:
- The Lotus Community Workshop by Harmony Korine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31WEBwFpULg
- Oneohtrix Point Never - Animals by Rick Alverson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UztCDH2xuQ
- Bad Lieutenant: Port of Call New Orleans by Werner Herzog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OblPKObX6Q
- Twixt by Francis Ford Coppola
I super randomly mentioned this movie last night (as being unwatchably cringe, even as a fan of the genre), so it was pretty eerie to see this news today.
I'll be watching Heat instead of this :)
If you're cringing it's because it is accurate (and you and I were like that — or nearly so).
If anything I wish it had not been a comedy but rather a more serious film with the same cast. They only touched on but could have done more with the psychology of these young, awkward, hormone-fueled "geniuses" falling in among some of the most awkward and smartest other young people in the world. Those who have always been the smartest in school now finding themselves ranking maybe somewhere in the middle among their new cohorts. And of course all the heightened awkwardness of being away from your parents for the first time in co-ed living arrangements....
"Nerds vs Jocks" is a trope that bugs me to no end because my experience in school and afterwards is that jocks are better than average. I never got bullied by a jock, in fact, when people tried to ambush me at my dorm I ducked into the room of the captain of the rugby team and that was the last time anybody tried to ambush me at my dorm.
I have to mostly agree with you, in the sense that the jocks were no less nice than anybody else, maybe even more so. That's a pretty low bar for teenagers, though. Furthermore, the jocks by and large didn't really understand the misery of bullying, so they treated it lightly, and they did more than their share.
In my typology of bullies, there's the archetypal "unhappy at home" kind of bully who is troubled and traumatized and takes it out on other people. After-school specials will teach you that all bullies are like that, but in my experience, they were relatively rare in real life. The more common type, who accounted for almost all of the bullying, were the "protecting community standards" bullies, who were happy and popular and bullied people as a public service, sometimes even for the good of the victim. When people did something disruptive or destructive to the community, like being gay, thinking they were as good as people that they weren't as good as, or talking to a jock's girlfriend, the community needed to be repaired, and the violator needed to be put on a more healthy path in life. As budding community leaders, the jocks naturally stepped into that role, especially when physical work was required.
I managed to escape bullying in high school by being incredibly bland and repressing any inappropriate social ambitions (i.e., any at all) but I could see from cases around me that if there had been anything socially disturbing about me, a strong effort would have been made to correct the situation.
With my C64 arriving in 9th grade, and my being a pretty good wrestler, I was both.
My sophomore year, when getting a ride from my state champion teammate, I don't know what I said, but he just turned to me and said,
"McCall, you're a neeeerrrrrd."
It wasn't bullying, because I've never been bullied, but I was -- and am -- a nerd.
And, yeah, "Real Genius" got a lot of play on HBO back then. I especially loved the Lazlo storyline, and "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" is such a GREAT song.