lkrubner 4 days ago

I agree that there must have been earlier writing, likely written on wood. Early systems could have evolved from markings on trees, like we still use on the Appalachian Trail, and other trails. Warnings for bears or tigers, symbols for different tribes on different paths. If you've hiked much then you're aware that even experienced woodsmen can get lost as the season changes and a valley changes, or after a hard storm washes away evidence of a trail. Children, in particular, would have been at risk, but would have almost certainly needed to do work over distances, in particular fetching water, which is something that even today children as young as 5 are asked to do. Notches on trees would have been a likely starting point for a system of symbols to communicate.

When I was much younger I used to work as a hike leader for a summer camp in Virginia. We would take a small group of teenagers out for 7 day hikes, during which we could cover something between 70 to 90 miles (112 to 145 kilometers). At one time I knew that stretch of trail so well I thought I could walk it blindfolded. And yet, I only knew it in the summer. One year I went in the fall and I was astonished how different it was. I was helped by the markings on the trees. (This was before cell phones and GPS.)

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dachris 4 days ago

Exactly - there's probably a fluent transition between symbols and painting and writing and then alphabetic writing.

Territorial animals that we are, I'd add "here starts the territory of the Saber-Toothed Tiger Clan" signs to path markings as likely candidates for earliest symbolic communication.

Nice to see that the earliest examples of writing are still somewhat recognizable (as opposed to modern alphabets) - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing - a hand, a foot, a goat or sheep.

Fun thing is, with modern technology we have regressed (advanced?) to a massive use of pictograms - a modern smartphone wielding human, in addition to the alphabet, knows at least a few hundreds or even thousands of pictograms ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

truculent 4 days ago

> there's probably a fluent transition between symbols and painting and writing and then alphabetic writing

I'm with you until we get to alphabetic writing, which has (to our knowledge) only been invented once. To get from other writing systems to an alphabet requires a few conceptual leaps which are much more challenging and, I would suggest, not fluent.

If it were a smooth path, we ought to have seen alphabetic scripts arise independently multiple times (as we have other forms of writing).

mcswell 4 days ago

Not sure, but I think Hangul counts as a second invention of alphabetic writing.

If you count syllabic writing systems (which are not technically alphabetic, but are more so than Chinese, or Mayan or Egyptian hieroglyphics), there are more: Japanese hiragana and katakana, Cherokee syllabics, Pahawh Hmong, Vai (West Africa), and Linear B (and presumably Linear A).

There's also Thaana, the script used for Maldivian, which uses some Arabic script symbols, as well as Indic digits. So while it's semi-alphabetic (partly abugida), and it's derived from existing writing systems, it uses the borrowed symbols in unique ways.

There are other syllabic writing systems as well, like Inuktitut and Cree, but those were created by missionaries familiar with other writing systems.

truculent 3 days ago

> Not sure, but I think Hangul counts as a second invention of alphabetic writing.

It is my understanding that Hangul is believed to have been influenced by other alphabetic writing (e.g. Phagspa) which themselves descended from the original alphabet. Though it was a distinct creation, the core alphabetic idea was not independently discovered.

> If you count syllabic writing systems (which are not technically alphabetic, but are more so than Chinese, or Mayan or Egyptian hieroglyphics), there are more: Japanese hiragana and katakana, Cherokee syllabics, Pahawh Hmong, Vai (West Africa), and Linear B (and presumably Linear A).

Syllabic writing systems are significantly less powerful than the alphabet (hence why they have generally been superceded by alphabetic ones).

They have been invented multiple times, so you can argue the smooth slope goes up to syllabic writing, sure. But only once has that led to an alphabet.

> There's also Thaana

I hadn't heard of this, but Wikipedia seems to suggest it's descended from Phoenician like everything else (although it has made the step from abjad -> alphabet).

Tainnor 4 days ago

Alphabets may only have been invented once, but writing systems that have a (roughly, it's never perfect) 1:1 correspondence with the sounds of the language have been invented several times independently, e.g. in syllabaries (Japanese Kana are derived from Kanji) and abugidas. I would suggest that that conceptual leap is a much bigger one than the one of treating consonants and vowels as independent.

truculent 3 days ago

Syllabaries have been invented multiple times independently and an alphabet only once, which to me would suggest the alphabetic step is the harder one to make.

Why would you suggest the opposite? I'm a complete layperson in this area, so I understand my view might be quite limited.

int_19h 3 days ago

The alternative possibility is that alphabets lend themselves much more naturally to adaptation for other languages, and so, once invented, they spread extremely fast - faster than it would take for another one to appear naturally.

truculent 1 day ago

Yes, that's a nice point - this adds censoring to our "data" on other writing systems. My intuition is that even if you accounted for exposure to an existing alphabet, the time-to-develop alphabet would still be much longer than for syllabaries or other writing systems, but that's a guess.

DonHopkins 4 days ago

I'm so old that we didn't even have Emojis, not even letters yet, and we had to communicate with punctuation alone! ;)

choeger 4 days ago

You had punctuation? We had to to with empty spaces and silence! I once read an entire poem just using silence!